Tuesday, February 07, 2006

These People Are Insane

These stories about the Muslims all upset about the cartoon is making me furious, so here's my ranting post. Check out this story on Fox News. Now these people are attacking NATO peacekeepers!Every day I continue to grow sicker and sicker of the entire region, and every crazy event that they do. If their religion is so "peaceful" what about 9/11, beheadings in Indonesia, call for the destruction of Israel, election of Hamas, bombings in London, bombings in Spain, buildings of WMD's,riots in France? This is more than just "extremists" at work here, and I continue to grow tired of hearing American journalists have been taken captive, or this American has been shot. They elect these crazy leaders to represent them knowing that the entire world will look down on them more than everyone already does. There is obviously a fundamental doctrinal problem with their religion as millions are involved in these deadly protests. What a peaceful religion, where thousands in the streets are now calling for the death of the Danish Prime Minister, as well as the cartoonist. They need to get over it. They don't live in Denmark, they live in fascist theocracies, and infact elect theocratic leaders. For these governments over there to be letting this happen is very upsetting. What kind of hypocrisy is it that George Bush is a murder to these people for taking out Saddam Hussein, but yet these people kill each other over a cartoon not even published in their country. TC's Angry Message To the Arabs:It's called freedom of speech you crazy people, so why don't you stop trying to fight Jews and Christians, and realize what you are missing.

75 Comments:

At 2/07/2006 03:22:00 PM, Anonymous Rtwng Extrmst said...

Watch out TC, you might be tagged as a bigot for those kinds of comments.

Be careful if you are walking the halls at Chantilly High School. This could end up in the Times.
;-)

 
At 2/07/2006 03:25:00 PM, Blogger too conservative said...

rtwng-

Muslims at my school have stated publically that they support the President of Iran.

I don't care what they think of me.

And I am growing sick of the political correctness.

In Modern Day Times, think of this:
Not All Muslims are Terrorists, but All Terrorists are Muslim

 
At 2/07/2006 03:30:00 PM, Anonymous Rtwng Extrmst said...

TC,

While I share your frustration with the goings-on, I think Timothy McVeigh and Ted Kazinski would differ with you.

However, political correctness does seem to reign supreme (as Michael Graham found out). There is much that the Muslim community needs to do to "police its own".

 
At 2/07/2006 03:39:00 PM, Anonymous Freddie said...

Timothy McVeigh and Ted Kazinski are out of the terrorism business. There are very few exceptions to TC's description of terrorists.

 
At 2/07/2006 03:40:00 PM, Anonymous Freddie said...

Thanks for going back to normal colors. My eyes are saved.

The header picture is great.

 
At 2/07/2006 03:41:00 PM, Anonymous NOVAGOPer said...

Wow TC I am impressed!

A conservative posting from you!

I always think about this:when they do something to hurt us-we don't blow up American mosques.

But when we do something to piss them off they go into the Christian neighborhoods and blow up churches.

These Arabians need to stay in the desert!

 
At 2/07/2006 03:51:00 PM, Anonymous Rtwng Extrmst said...

Freddie,

How about ELF and ALF?

 
At 2/07/2006 04:30:00 PM, Blogger neocon22 said...

TC- whole heartedly agree with you.... The middle east is imploding and we cannot allow Islam to dictate the way we live our lives out of fear for offending them.

When listening to Chris Core this morning, he said that our response should be to stand up with Denmark and apologize simply to stop the riots. I say, lets pull all staff from our embassies, and let them keep rioting. This only hurts their own countries.

 
At 2/07/2006 04:50:00 PM, Blogger AWCheney said...

I agree with Rtwng Extrmst on this. It's always so easy to blame an entire segment of the population for the acts of a few extremists (present company excepted Rtwng ;-). This is exactly why terrorists do what they do...create terror and fear in order to generate hostility that they can then take to their moderate fellows and exploit in order to increase their numbers (terrorists/extremists). That's how they build their army...on hate.

...and, BTW, we still have plenty of homegrown terrorists. It's rather naive to believe that McVeigh and Kazinski were, and are, the only ones.

 
At 2/07/2006 04:54:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

Isam in't the only religion that causes conflict, although at the moment they are the best at it.

If you condemn Islam, don't forget to condemn christianity too. If most christians followed the letter of the bible like most muslims follow the koran, christianity would be just as bad.

 
At 2/07/2006 05:01:00 PM, Blogger nova_middle_man said...

ok I almost puked reading this thread

There are extreme muslims and there are extreme christians who are both psychopaths.

The majority of Muslims are not terrrorists it is a small group of extremists who have a warped vision of Islam. Think about Christians who bomb abortion clinics as similar radicals who make up a very tiny piece of Christianity.

 
At 2/07/2006 05:09:00 PM, Blogger AWCheney said...

Willis...this from an avowed atheist? What exactly do you know about the Bible OR the Koran?

 
At 2/07/2006 05:21:00 PM, Blogger too conservative said...

NOVA Middle-

Name the extreme Christians who commit these kind of acts on such a scale.

You can find...what less than ten within the past 100 years?

"Extreme" Christians don't go around committing these acts, and we wouldnt kill each other over some cartoon. Your comparison is sick and twisted.

As Muslims sit there, and call for our distruction, are we burning their flags? NO.

Anke-I mean this respectfully-that I believe mine and neocons generation feels much more content towards the arab world because all we know of them is their extreme ways.

I will be happy when my generation comes to power, and we can deal with these people.

Christians who bomb abortion cliincs are few and far between.

In the middle east they ELECT these psycho anti-Western leaders like it's their job.

When is the last time we have elected someone calling for the destruction of Palestine, and Iran?

Could it be that we havent?

When the bombs and chemical weapons come back to D.C., and we all are twitching due to some nerve agent...and the Arab world is laughing...maybe then NOVA middle man will see..that the "extremist" christians are NOT anywhere close to the "extremist"Muslims.

It is not a few extreme people here guys..this is a problem with MILLIONS of people living in the middle east, as is being seen now.

These are average, everyday people calling for the death of the cartoonist.

Willis-I believe if people read the bible correctly..they would not be calling for killing.

Here for example is a fundamental different in doctrinal thought:

From the bible- When dealing with Mary Magdalen Jesus says"let he without sin cast the first stone".

In the Koran, Sura 4:15 says "If adultery is proved for married woman through the testimony of 4 witnesses, then detain them in their house until death takes them or God appoints for them a way".

..hm...I sense just a little difference in the meaning behind this..

or how about this:
Sra 24:2-The woman and the man guilty of fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes: let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the last day:and let a party of the believers witness their punishment.

So now all of the "believers" can get together and watch someone getting flogged!!

That's some peacefullness right there.

 
At 2/07/2006 05:43:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

TC: ever heard of the Branch Davidians??

quotes from the bible:

But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me. Luke 19:26

If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.

Deuteronomy 13:12

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

Deuteronomy 13:7
---------------------------------
I could find more, TC, but it should be obvious that, interpreted literally, the bible is nearly as dangerous as the koran.

But the koran is worse. The koran endorses suicide, martyrdome, and the killing of anyone in the name of Muhammad.

And, even worse, the vast majority of Muslims interpret the koran literally, while most christians do not interpret the bible literally. This is the main difference, the degree of moderation that has been achieved over the years.

And TC, just because Christianity has achieved a level of moderation over the past 100 years doesn't decrease it's potential for harm. The inquisition, the crusades, the extermination of the jews should show any honest individual that christianity is just as dangerous as any other religion, in the end.

 
At 2/07/2006 06:06:00 PM, Blogger too conservative said...

Willis-

Yes I have heard of the Branch Dividians..I will be attending college less than 10 minutes from their compound, and visited their compound over the past weekend.

Deuteronomy is the Old Testement..and when Jesus came Willis, things changed, and he did not preach murder or death.

My Luke 19:26-For I say unto you . that unto every one which hath shall be given:and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

did you make that up? or what version do you have.

 
At 2/07/2006 06:23:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

I'm sorry, it's luke 19:27

 
At 2/07/2006 06:41:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

And if you've heard of the Branch Davidians, then you should know that over 100 of them committed suicide because of their CHRISTIAN faith.

 
At 2/07/2006 06:47:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

"Deuteronomy is the Old Testement..and when Jesus came Willis, things changed, and he did not preach murder or death."

Tell that to the millions of people murdered during the inquisition. Burned at the stake, gnawed to death by rats, stretched to death on the rack. Jesus did them alot of good.

 
At 2/07/2006 06:49:00 PM, Blogger too conservative said...

Willis-

Janet Reno did alot to end many of their lives as well...

 
At 2/07/2006 06:52:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

They burned their building down. That is suicide.

Janet Reno and the ATF made some mistakes in dealing with the Davidians, but that was only because they didn't understand the degree of lunacy these CHRISTIANS possesed.

 
At 2/07/2006 06:52:00 PM, Blogger too conservative said...

This is the 21st Century..

who is doing the killing now?

it's not the christians.

 
At 2/07/2006 06:52:00 PM, Anonymous Freddie said...

Yes, ELF and ALF are a problem, but they are a very much smaller problem.

Too conservative's point is being supported by those who disagree with him. They cannot come up with a significant example of current non-Muslim terrorists.

 
At 2/07/2006 06:56:00 PM, Blogger too conservative said...

Thank you freddie-

It's okay..these people can go back to 1450 if they want.

and as they are debating back in the day...

the Muslims continue to burn our flag in the Middle East, and behead our citizens.

 
At 2/07/2006 06:57:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

TC, I've said that the biggest problem currently is Islam. That can't be debated.

But to deny that other religions have caused tremendous bloodshed in the past, and to only concentrate on Islam, is avoiding the brunt of the problem, which is religion itself, in all forms.

The fundamentalist christians in charge of our country, and their faith, are a big problem as well. No, they aren't murderous, but they are definitely callous and often stupefied by their faith.

 
At 2/07/2006 07:00:00 PM, Anonymous Freddie said...

Only three years after 1450 Constantinople fell. That then led to over 400 years suffering at the hands of Muslims in south eastern Europe.

 
At 2/07/2006 07:01:00 PM, Blogger too conservative said...

Willis-

If people stuck to the ACTUAL teachings of the religions, the world would be a peaceful place.

My problem is with the doctrine of Islam.

The doctrine of Christianity, and our sinless savior, Jesus Christ..is one of peace.

If people did what Jesus preached..we wouldnt have these problems.

 
At 2/07/2006 07:03:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

Again, I ask you, what was the inquisition, the crusades, and the genocide of the jews??

Those were perpetrated by devout and practicing christians.

The degree to which christianity is currently more peaceful than it was is only due to social progress and modern technology and science. It isn't due to any intrinsic good in christianity.

 
At 2/07/2006 07:07:00 PM, Blogger too conservative said...

haha

Willis-you just showed your ignorance.

Hitler hated Christians, and killed many of them in concentration camps.

he never used the bible..and infact Pope John Paul was in a concentration camp..as were millions of Catholics.

The inquisition was for power..and yes Christians killing Christians.

During the crusades..people like Saladin killed just as many Christians, as Christians did Muslims.

We tried to reclaim the Holy land..and lost...

it's okay though..look who has it now!

freddie-again I ask, do I know you?

 
At 2/07/2006 07:11:00 PM, Anonymous Freddie said...

Willis:

The genocide of the Jews was done by Nazis. The Nazis were not Christians. They were explicitly anti-Christian and tried to suppress Christianity.

The crusades was a defense against Muslim aggression against Christians, especially against the Byzantine Empire and Christian sites in the Holy Land.

I'm not going to defend the inquisition though.

 
At 2/07/2006 07:12:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

Do you think jewish genocide was limited to hitler?? I never even mentioned him, although the holocaust was certainly driven by centuries of anti-semitism driven mainly be christianity.

The inquisition was christians killing christians, yes, but only after they accused the other christians of being heretics. It was done by religious people. In fact, St. augustine was a big proponent of it.

Your final comment speaks volumes, and is consistent with republican thought today. Our support of Israel is faith based, and that is incredibly stupid.

But, I see you like that kind of stupidity in your leaders, TC.

 
At 2/07/2006 07:14:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

In fact, I'm going to save that last comment of yours, TC, in case you ever run for public office.

 
At 2/07/2006 07:15:00 PM, Anonymous Freddie said...

St. Augustine was hundreds of years before the inquisition. The only good thing that came out of the inquisition is a great musical number "What a show!"

 
At 2/07/2006 07:16:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

Freddie, there have been centuries of jewish genocide in Europe. It came to a head with the Nazis, but it was done for centuries beforehand.

In fact, there is significant evidence that the holocaust was perpetrated as a political manuever, because the people wanted it.

 
At 2/07/2006 07:19:00 PM, Anonymous Freddie said...

Yes, Willis, there were some horrible things done way back when. Try to come up with something more recent.

 
At 2/07/2006 07:19:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

St. Augustine supported torture and murder of heretics in all sorts of painful ways. His writings were very important to the inquisition.

 
At 2/07/2006 07:23:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

Why does it matter?? As I've stated, the main reason why christianity is moderated now is progress.

It's hard to be a fundamentalist in the information age.

The moderation isn't a credit to christianity. It's a credit to progress.

 
At 2/07/2006 07:25:00 PM, Anonymous Freddie said...

The primary moderating influence in the world has been Christianity. For instance, the anti-slavery movement of the 19th Century was predominantly, Christian.

 
At 2/07/2006 07:33:00 PM, Blogger too conservative said...

ha Willis-

No where did I say it was faithbased.

but make up stuff in your head..it's okay./

 
At 2/07/2006 07:55:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

TC: Ronald Reagan said it was faithbased, our support of Israel. Will you disagree with him??

Freddie: the anti-slavery and civil rights movements had little to do with christianity. Their driving force was the equality guaranteed in the constitution, and our own consciences.

Many arguments were made by evangelicals, citing biblical support for slavery. I suggest you read Charles Hodge's "The Bible Argument on Slavery".

 
At 2/07/2006 08:11:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

In the end though, and to get back on topic, to the cartoons and how crazed and angry the Muslim world is over their publication:

Why are we investing so much of our capital to free Iraqi people who are part of a global muslim population that is so incredibly irrational???

Why are we sticking ourselves in the middle of this religious fracas unnecessarily, and putting ourselves at risk??

If anything was an argument against getting involved in the middle east (which I've been saying all along), this is it.

 
At 2/07/2006 09:31:00 PM, Anonymous Rtwng Extrmst said...

Well, I think we can all now come to the agreement that (and I say this after thinking long and hard about it as I do not use these kinds of words flippantly) Willis is a religious bigot.

He attributes the worst of behavior to those who have twisted and abused Christianity for their own personal power over the centuries and says that is "Christianity". The real truth Willis is the central and most important commandment in Christianity is the following: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength" and "Love your neighbor as yourself". This in the words of our Lord is the "greatest commandment". Nothing like this exists in Islam and especially among the hate-filled terrorists we speak of here.

Willis, it is because of people like you that I am so thankful that our founding fathers had the wisdom to include freedom of religion in our Constitution. Were it not for that, I would be fearful of being locked up and/or eliminated by a government full of hate like that you seem to be espousing here.

There's no doubt that the statement "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" is true with regard to the human condition. Religion in all forms has been abused throughout history to feed the power of a few despots. This is also true in Christianity. However, it is the State taking over a religion that has traditionally been the source of the injustice you claim. To come to the conclusion that it is Christianity itself that is the enemy is to misunderstand completely the faith itself.

Cults are not Christianity. Christians do not blow-up abortion clinics or shoot abortionists. Misguided, sick people do, and by the way the first to publicly condemn these kinds of acts is in fact the Christian Church. This kind of response is sorely lacking in the Muslim community today, which is what I was talking about earlier.

Finally Willis, are you so naiive as to think that a world "with no religion too" would be a paradise of community that would "live as one"? I for one say "you are a dreamer" because you are obviously forgetting to total injustice, oppression, and murder on a mass scale executed by such "enlightened" athiestic governments like those under the former Soviet Union, Nazi Germany (yes, they were not Christians), Red China, and Pol Pot to name a few. I for one would much rather live in a society like ours where religion is one of our cultural foundations, because without it, there is no restraint at all.

 
At 2/07/2006 09:35:00 PM, Anonymous Freddie said...

Willis said: "the anti-slavery and civil rights movements had little to do with [C]hristianity. Their driving force was the equality guaranteed in the constitution, and our own consciences."

Willis has a very outside the mainstream interpretation of history.

 
At 2/07/2006 09:36:00 PM, Anonymous Rtwng Extrmst said...

Oh and as far as "wasting capital to free Iraqi people". This is not the only thing we are doing. We mainly did it to protect our nation from a despot who had shown a willingness to work hand-in-hand with this truely extremist element in Islam. By the way a despot who DID HAVE WMD and showed a continuing desire to continue to develop it. No two ways about it, this man was a clear threat to our country and he had to be deposed. Once done, it is our obligation to give their society a chance to build its own stability and yes, have a chance at freedom.

 
At 2/07/2006 09:36:00 PM, Anonymous Freddie said...

On the current topic, our policy had been what willis advocates: not getting involved in governing in the Middle East and leaving them to their own "religious fracas". The result of that old policy was the September 11th attacks. We are now trying to push the Muslim world towards Democracy. It's certainly not easy, and there will be lots of setbacks, but the alternative of leaving the likes of Bin Laden, Hussein, and Ahmadinejad in charge would be very bad.

 
At 2/07/2006 09:47:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

rtwng: freedom of religion in our country ensures the rights of the minority. As a christian, you are not part of the minority. Without freedom of religion, you could still practice christianity as you please; it would be people like myself who would have to live in fear, or by murdered as so many were in Italy during the inquisition.

Living a reasoned and ethical existence, or believing in such things, may make me a dreamer because of the corruption religion has forced on the world, but it doesn't make me crazy. As I've stated before, the holocaust was largely a product of the anti-semitism that has existed for so many centuries throughout the world.

The Soviet Union, Pol-Pot, and others may have not been overtly religious, but they weren't sane either. They held irrational prejudices, and were driven by a lust for power. Read some of Sam Harris' writings, as he is much better at spelling out this argument than I am.

rtwng said: "Cults are not christianity. Chritians do not blow up abortion clinics or shoot abortionists."

I can assure you they do. Or are you qualified to say who is christian, and who is not??? This is the same type of thinking that led to the inquisition, naming people heretics, and then burning heretics at the stake, or forcing rats to eat heretics alive. The thought that these heretics were not christian, despite the fact that they called themselves so.

You cannot dissociate yourself from the unsavory aspects and characters of your religion. Religions of all shapes and sizes breed hatred. "My god is right, your god is wrong, and you are crazy."

Without religion, surely, the world would be a MUCH better place.

 
At 2/07/2006 09:50:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

rtwng:

Saddam Huissein was certainly a despot, but he wasn't in league with mainstream Islam, the ones who like to blow themselves up to kill Jews and Christians. The new Iraq will be more closely aligned with Iran, Palestine and the suicide bombers than Saddam's Iraq ever was.

Sometimes, a brutal dictator is a good thing. I think in Iraq, that will be the case.

As for your rhetyoric about them "deserving freedom", well they seem to like to use their freedom to blow themselves up and kill others. It isn't our obligation to fight for other countries; our obligation is to America.

And the likelihood is that by giving these people freedom, we have made Americans less safe.

 
At 2/07/2006 09:51:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

Sorry, the inquisition was spanish. My bad.

 
At 2/07/2006 09:54:00 PM, Anonymous Freddie said...

Willis said: "the anti-slavery and civil rights movements had little to do with [C]hristianity. Their driving force was the equality guaranteed in the constitution, and our own consciences."

Willis has such a poor understanding of history, and of Christianity, that there is no point in continuing this discussion.

 
At 2/07/2006 09:57:00 PM, Anonymous Freddie said...

The one time Willis is right, he corrects himself. There actually was an Italian Inquisition.

 
At 2/07/2006 10:11:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

There were many inquisitions. The history of christianity is rife with bloodshed.

In fact, the most recent inqusition ended in the 1800s, and some south american countries were still murdering "heretics" in the early 20th century.

 
At 2/07/2006 10:38:00 PM, Anonymous Rtwng Extrmst said...

Willis,

The more you write, the more your ignorance and bigotry is clear.

Far be it from me to say what is Christian and what is not. I have only been studying the faith for better than 30 years. Of course only Willis has the intellect to decide that question.

Yes, I am a Christian, and I believe Christianity is the true way to life. However, I would not (nor would 99.9% of Christians in the world) impose our religion on anyone else nor kill them for not believing. This is left to the power-hungry apostates who have nothing to live for but their own self-interest.

Willis, the irony is that you and those like you who claim to be in the "minority" have nothing to fear from Christianity and in fact have all the freedoms and protections you enjoy today largely as a result of the Christian faith and philosophy. In fact life on earth without religion at all would be a very oppressive and murderous place where only the strong would survive (so much for the minority).

This is the end of my discussion on this subject with Willis. Another one where he makes evident his prejudiced and closed-minded perspective.

 
At 2/07/2006 11:09:00 PM, Blogger too conservative said...

Rtwng-

Good points.

 
At 2/07/2006 11:35:00 PM, Anonymous Rtwng Extrmst said...

Upon further consideration I will make one additional and final post on this thread: Proverbs 26:4-5. I should have known better at the beginning. It would hae saved me alot of useless typing.

 
At 2/08/2006 12:10:00 AM, Blogger Elle said...

freddie,

i refuse to touch the rest of this, but as a US history major, I have to say, please don't think anti-slavery and abolition stances were fueled mainly by the goodness of Christian hearts. Yes Christians who opposed slavery pointed to the Bible, but so did so-called Christians who upheld it. You must remember that evangelical churches split along regional lines on the issue of slavery (that's why we have Southern Baptists, for one), that southern Christians tended to gloss over the book of Exodus (which, some historians claim, enslaved people identified with) when teaching slaves, and that many American Christians initially justified slavery by saying that black people had no "save-able" soul and that a permanent position of servitude was the "natural," meaning God-sanctioned, place for blacks.

 
At 2/08/2006 12:55:00 AM, Blogger Willis said...

rtwng:

I don't make distinctions. What has been done in the name of christianity is terrible. Your attempt to say "Well, they aren't true christians" is a hollow one, because THEY are sure they are true christians, and that is all that matters.

If it makes you happier to think that those christians bombing abortion clinics are in fact, not christians, then go ahead and think that. But that doesn't change the fact that the bombers call themselves christians, believe themselves to be christians, and sound just like you when they aren't killing people.

I don't care what is christian or unchristian. That is an argument that you religious folk can have to make yourselves feel better. When I talk about christianity, I'm talking about EVERYTHING DONE IN THE NAME OF CHRISTIANITY, whether it follows the letter of the bible, or whether it does not. After all, the bible can be interpreted many different ways, and your interpretation is only corect to you.

Similarly, to muslims who claim the suicide bombers don't represent their view of Islam, I don't care. Just because your view of Islam doesn't support suicide bombing, doesn't mean that suicide bombers are un-muslim. Their view of Islam is just as valid as yours, and they are killing themselves and others for their religion.

All of the crap and b.s. done in the name of islam, christianity, and any other religion, completely sickens me. It should sicken you too.

 
At 2/08/2006 09:43:00 AM, Anonymous Freddie said...

Elle,

Yes, to their discredit, there were Christians on the other side, but as I said, the anti-slavery movement of the 19th Century was predominantly Christian.

 
At 2/08/2006 10:27:00 AM, Anonymous Rtwng Extrmst said...

Willis,

I am posting this because you directed some slanderous accusations my way.

You paint with pretty broad brush strokes. Perhaps you ought to reconsider before using your own standard we have to start lumping you in with all the athiestic despots and murderers throughout history.

"the fact that the bombers call themselves christians, believe themselves to be christians, and sound just like you when they aren't killing people."

So are you saying I promote "killing people"? I think you should think that over Willis. I defy you to find any post of mine where I promote killing people other than perhaps in the case of legal capital punishment where the state executes criminals of vile acts against the lives of others. This is a far cry from the "bombers" you speak of. In fact my earlier post promoted the complete condemnation of such acts.

Finally, doing something "in someone's name" does not give you automatically the status of that person or group. You are wrong to make such wild and inaccurate assessments about religion and this only belies a complete animmosity and perhaps even hatred of religion in general (thus my earlier "bigot" comment).

 
At 2/08/2006 11:41:00 AM, Blogger w00t said...

May I chime in now?

Throughout history, regardless of religion or nationality, there have always been those that have used religion or the religious infrastructure as a justification or a means to persecute war or a policy against some other group. Some of these users of religion were religious leaders themselves. Other times they were in secular power that exploited either the religion's writings or situation.

Popes played politics and rulers/kings/barons played religious pretense. Caliphs were both ruler and religious heads. Chinese emperors were representatives from heaven for a long period. Genghis Khan couldn't care less unless your religion threathened his authority.

I think the facts speak for themselves:

1. The vast majority of Islamic states do not allow Christianity to exist or practice freely within their borders.
2. The vast majority of open and free societies allow the muslims to practice freely.
3. The vast majority of muslims have no desire to kill or destroy at the scale that Osama wants.
4. The vast majority of muslims have also failed to counter the extremists of Islam verbally,practically and politically.

It is the 4th point above that I find most disturbing for many interpret silence as agreement.

 
At 2/08/2006 01:53:00 PM, Anonymous Rtwng Extrmst said...

Good summary w00t and btw, the 4th point should be in the present tense as to this day there is barely a whimper from the Muslim establishment truely condemning these acts.

 
At 2/08/2006 01:53:00 PM, Anonymous Freddie said...

Nice blog, w00t

http://rationalpolitix.blogspot.com/

 
At 2/08/2006 05:08:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

rtwng:

I wasn't meaning to imply that you are a murderer, or want to be. I was merely illustrating the fact that, when the abortion clinic bombers aren't killing people, they sound just like any other evangelical christian. They call themselves christians.

Therefore, they are christians, just like you are.

To your accusation that atheistic despots would make the world a worse place, I challenge you to find one country that was untainted completely by the perversion that is religion. Sure, there have been regimes that purport to be secular, but these regimes were corrupted by other factors, like greed, and often were indirectly corrupted by religion and prejudices originally driven by religion.

And yes, rtwng, doing something in the name of christianity gives you status as a christian. You can deny it to make yourself feel better, but to objective observers like me, it is christianity that is driving these people to kill each other.

Christianity is a problem, just like Islam is, and it is about time you recognized it as such.

 
At 2/08/2006 05:09:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

woot:

The vast majority of muslims support suicide bombers. That is a fact. they have done polls, and in a large percentage of muslim states, including Iraq and Iran, the majority of people support martyrdom and suicide bombers.

"Moderate" Islam hardly exists.

 
At 2/08/2006 08:25:00 PM, Blogger w00t said...

willis:

I may concede that there may have been polls that show that Palestinians support suicide bombings of specifically Israelis. I would be interested of any references of specifically Iraq and Iran.

Secondly, please read my words carefully. Yours is not a direct contradiction or counterexample of mine.

Furthermore, let's carry your thesis to its logical conclusion:
Christianity is a problem.
Islam is a problem.
Then I can extend it with...
Atheism is a problem.
Agnosticism is a problem.
Buddhism is a problem.
Hinduism is a problem.
.....

Now all we have to do then is define what Christianity is AND isn't. And we do that for Islam and the rest too.... Care to start?

 
At 2/08/2006 09:49:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

Atheism isn't dogma. It isn't in the same category as the others.

I've said Islam is the biggest problem. The Koran can be viewed to support martyrdom and murder in the name of Allah.

Christianity is the second biggest problem. As I've said, moderate christianity isn't a credit to christianity, it is a credit to the progressive nature of western society. As we've seen with the inquisitions, the crusades, and the genocide of the jews, christianity is trmendously maladaptive and can lead to the slaughter of millions.

Judaism hasn't led to mass murder in quite a while, but it has been led indirectly to the slaughter of jewish people.

Hinduism is generally a peaceful religion, but Hindus don't get along well with muslims. I'm more inclined to blame those problems on Islam, however.

Buddhism and other religions can cause problems too, but in modern society they pale in comparison to these other religions, christianity, judaism, and islam in particular.

Agnosticism isn't a problem, per se, but it is illogical.

Again, atheism can't be lumped in with the others, because it isn't dogma. A lack of belief isn't belief.

 
At 2/08/2006 09:53:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

Also woot:

You ask me to define what christianity is and isn't. Even if I were to attempt to do this, it wouldn't matter.

What is done in the name of christianity is what matters. I don't care whether that is your version of christianity, rtwng's version, Jesus's version. Any version is wrong, and each christian believer thinks they are leading a christian lifestyle, even if that includes killing people.

Turning a blind eye to those who kill others in the name of christianity because "they aren't christian" is just plain stupid.

 
At 2/08/2006 10:44:00 PM, Anonymous Rtwng Extrmst said...

Willis,

I have to disagree.

"a·the·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-zm)
n.

Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
The doctrine that there is no God or gods."

Sounds like dogma to me.

I hope you don't mind if I pray for you to the God that you say does not exist.

 
At 2/08/2006 11:07:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

I'm a strong atheist. There is no dogma.

A lack of belief is not a belief.

I've had this argument countless times before. I can see how it would be hard for a sky wizard aficionado to understand a lack of belief, but that's how it is.

 
At 2/09/2006 08:52:00 AM, Anonymous Rtwng Extrmst said...

From Merriam Webster:

disbelief
One entry found for disbelief.


Main Entry: dis·be·lief
Pronunciation: "dis-b&-'lEf
Function: noun
: the act of disbelieving : mental rejection of something as untrue

Still sounds like a dogma when you put the two together.

 
At 2/09/2006 08:55:00 AM, Anonymous Rtwng Extrmst said...

One more from Merriam:

dogma
One entry found for dogma.


Main Entry: dog·ma
Pronunciation: 'dog-m&, 'däg-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural dogmas also dog·ma·ta /-m&-t&/
Etymology: Latin dogmat-, dogma, from Greek, from dokein to seem -- more at DECENT
1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets (pedagogical dogma) c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

 
At 2/09/2006 10:00:00 AM, Blogger James Young said...

A religious and historical exchange with willis!

Does the phrase "Casting pearls before swine" ring a bell?

Not to worry, though. Eventually, his karma will run over his dogma.

 
At 2/09/2006 10:42:00 AM, Blogger w00t said...

OK, I will risk ignoring james young's advice and post further on this.

willis:
You seem to be taking the position that the various religions all have had their problems. Mine is that it doesn't matter what the religions are or have been. The problems "ascribed" to religion or groups that profess a religion are caused by other factors of which religion was only one aspect.

In other words, you can call it religion X but when they start killing themselves or others in the name of X, I will almost without exception see politics, greed, money, special interest, ego, diplomacy, posturing, reputation, face and insanity in there at one level or another. The use of religion X is a facade and a handle for the users. It hides the true motivation.

Muslims will also tell you that there are verses in the Koran that promote and advocate peace and tolerance to those of other beliefs. To brush all Muslims and Islamic societies as extremeists and radicals (aka non-moderates) is not doing a favor to anyone including yourself.

When I asked youself to define Christianity or Hinduism or Bhuddism, it was rhetorical. My point was that it doesn't matter because it doesn't make a difference.

Anecdotal - when Pakistan was being formed, Muslims in India had to migrate from India into the new state of Pakistan and Hindus had to migrate from Pakistan into India. There is film footage of one such famous path of migration along a long valley with hills running in a straight lines on both sides with footpaths cut into each row of hills. One side had the Hindus coming south, the other side had the Muslims going north. This valley is miles long and they can see and hear each other. What was happeneing was that every few yards or so, someone from each side would pick up a stone and throw it at the other hill across the small valley and curse at them. This scene repeats itself along the whole length of the valley. To me, it sure looked like the Hindus could dish it out as well as the Muslims. It doesn't matter who started it anymore. You might also benefit from meeting a gurkha or two to appreciate what a Hindu is capable of.

 
At 2/09/2006 12:32:00 PM, Anonymous Rtwng Extrmst said...

JY,

You must have missed my earlier ref. to Proverbs 26:4-5. I know, I kept answering him, but I have also given up on him...

 
At 2/09/2006 05:35:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

woot:

I mainly agree with you. People would be killing each other with or without religion. There will always be disagreement and bloodshed over petty and stupid things, I think.

But the fact remains that religion is the most seperating force in the world today. Nothing else creates sects of people who hate and want to kill other people. Religious affiliation is a stronger dividing force than country affiliation, racial makeup, gender, or anything else you can think of.

So, yes, the root of the problem, in the end, is our humanity. Religion, however, is the worst expression of this humanity.

All we have to do is understand how strong a dividing force religion is. Heaping all the blame on Islam is short-sighted. While Islam cetainly deserves alot of our attention, focusing solely on it is missing the bigger problem, which is religion itself.

Also, I'm aware of some hindu aggression. But compared with Islam, Hindu people have been much more accepting of other religions in their midst. Even today, throughout india, christians, muslims, and buddhists live in relative peace, and there is peace between the relative sects of hinduism as well. In the middle east, this is not the case, as we well know.

Perspective is important. Islam, and its doctrines of martyrdom, are certainly the biggest problem. But evangelical christianity can be placed in the same category as far as the irrationality and hatred it has the potential to breed. It is important to recognize this.

 
At 2/09/2006 05:37:00 PM, Blogger Willis said...

rtwng:

You can give me all the definitions you want. All I can describe for you is my atheism.

There is no dogma. There is no belief, or disbelief, because there is no evidence.

What are your beliefs regarding animated homicidal washing machines??

Oh, that's right, you don't have any.

 
At 5/01/2006 09:01:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is not freedom of speech. It is crossing the line. Little do you know that you have committed blasphemy. You will realize that as soon as you have entered your grave...mark my words. When a school teacher wears a pin saying "He's not my president", wasn't that freedom of speech? Now tell me who's the hypocrite here?

A person who attempts to blaspheme or malign God's prophet, or one who defends it saying it is freedom of speech?

We Muslims also rever Jesus as the penultimate prophet of God...and all of you so called "Christians" will be stunned when Jesus will return to earth before the day of judgement and PRACTISE ISLAM.

Thank you!
Have a nice life.

 

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